If I held a ritual for women who had hysterectomies, I wouldn’t say it was open to “all women” then call out only a specific type of women, I say “for women (set A) who have had hysterectomies (subset B)”. This does not negate the woman hood of women who haven’t had hysterectomies, but it says “this is for a specific subset of women based on physical experiences”. The same could be said for a ritual of healing for women who had been raped, support for women who had borne children, or celebration of cronehood (eg women over 50.)

The difference is subtle, but crucial: You can design an exclusive space without negating those who are excluded.

This is where Z and all of her defenders fail: They can’t just say “women who have menstruated” (a subset – some women due to health issues never menstruate.) They have to prattle on about “all women” and “those who weren’t ‘born’ women aren’t really women”. This is where and how the bigotry shows its ugly head.

The fact is, the radical dianics are talking just like the evangelicals do when they talk about gay marriage – just as strident, acusatory and hate filled.

BTW, I’m cis, bi, butch, nulliparous, disabled and have had a hist. Lots of women don’t have all these things in common with me. I don’t try to deny their womanhood, though.

I agree with Z Budapest on very little, but my arguments with her go by the board in my defense of the right of people to gather. In the OTO, one of the primary beliefs is in the defense of “light, life, love and liberty.” If someone wants to have a women-born-women ritual, they have that absolute right. If you don’t want to go, then don’t go. I don’t go where I’m not welcome. Instead, I go where I am welcome. I don’t go marching into a Baptist church and demand that they acknowledge the Goddess. Likewise, I am not going to go to a women-born-women ritual and demand that they accept me, or anyone else. It’s possible to respect each other’s spaces and boundaries, and it’s possible for us to disagree civilly.

So often, pagans are afraid to disagree. They do not want anyone to disagree or to dislike anyone else. No one is required to accept me, as I am not required to accept anyone. Anyone has the perfect freedom to dislike me intensely, and I have the right to dislike them as well. And I will defend their right to dislike me and to exclude me. That is part of personal liberty. I defend the right for people to separate from one another and make distinctions. And doing that is a hell of a long way from “bigotry.” Exclusion does not automatically equal discrimination. There are shades of gray here that are being deliberately overlooked.

I want us all to get along. But I don’t believe that it’s necessary for all of us to do everything together all the time. That’s one of the basic “geek fallacies.”

Thanks for hearing me out.

Hilariously, many of the trans women involved are acting very much like other people raised as males in this context – basically monopolizing conversations in a manner reminiscent of the way that boys of my generation drowned out girls in high school, so that to truly participate in academics a girl needed to either be very strong willed or attend an all female school. (I was blessed with Asperger’s syndrome, so didn’t notice/succumb to the pressure to shut up and listen to those (males) who had more “right” to participate/talk. Most other female bodied individuals learned their “place”.)

I know you are fairminded and trying to bring balance, and also self-determination for all, while allowing us to have those Mysteries that mean the most to us personally, as born female women, including us radical ButchDykeAmazons! And thanks for calling out ‘cis’ as a word that is NOT our own. But neither would I call myself by that other word….res-gendered, just simply, a bio Female WBW Butch DykeAmazon!
-In Sisterhood,
-FeistyAmazon